Why shouldn’t medics and engineers pay higher fees?
According to Lord Browne’s report into tuition fees a degree is now worth ‘just’ £2,500 a year to ‘graduates’. This equates to £100,000 over a lifetime, after tax. This figure, however, doesn’t include student debt. So, is university worth it, from a purely financial point of view when student debt is included?
Yes.
On average, students graduate with £20,000 of debt. This is repaid when your earnings reach £15,000. Effectively, as a graduate you pay a 9% graduate tax on all earnings over £15,000 until your student debt is cleared. So, let’s say you’re earning £22,000 a year in your graduate job, you will be paying back £630 a year. In fact, until you’re earning £43,000, the ‘graduate premium’ will outweigh any student debt repayments.
‘Aha!’, the critics may snarl. ‘So the current system penalises successful graduates?’ Well, no. It’s difficult to earn £40,000 a year without degree. Try becoming a doctor, lawyer or engineer without a degree. Their graduate premiums are of course higher. Plus, they pay back their student debt quicker.
The fact is some degrees are worth more than others. Putting an exact figure on how a much a ‘degree’ earns you is pointless. Engineers and medics, for example, will nearly always earn more than history graduates. My degree has less of a premium as it gives me fewer valuable skills. I can’t build bridges or perform surgery; I can sift through lots of data and read quickly.
How fees are paid for should reflect this. Expensive degrees, with lots of teaching like engineering and medicine, should have higher fees paid for by a graduate tax on high earning graduates. It’s unfair that arts student have to pay the same as science students for considerably less teaching and resources. Students with these more expensive, skills based degrees tend to earn more as a result. They should thus pay enough fees to cover the actual costs of their degree, if they can afford to. Should doctors and engineers earning large salaries not chip in a little extra for their education? If not why not?
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"It’s unfair that arts student have to pay the same as science students for considerably less teaching and resources. Students with these more expensive, skills based degrees tend to earn more as a result."
… But if these art degrees were cheaper the problem of fewer and fewer people taking up science, engineering and maths places would be accelerated. Arts degrees should not be subsidised as heavily as science degrees, this would sway way people into areas of work that are in need of graduates.
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Arts degrees aren't subsidised as heavily as science degrees as it is. Encouraging more into science is a problem. Better teaching in secondary schools would help. But that's a whole other topic…
Can’t believe you bothered writing this, though I have heard that, “He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist in our helper..”.
charging more for science degrees a bad idea, I mean half the time it doesn't matter which deree you have to the career you go into, a person with an arts degree can go into a high earning graduate job if they good enough, like the economics and finance students getting jobs in the city where they could earn more money in one bonus season then an engineer will do all year!
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@Imran. It's not about how much they earn, but how much their degree costs – which, in the case of engineering, is a heck of a lot more than £3000.
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Of course the net benefit of to society, the economy and the nation as a whole of most science, engineering and medicine degrees is inarguably higher. First if we examine engineering, Britain already produces far fewer engineers than either France or Germany, and we suffer as a result, in terms of developing new technology that will potentially bring economic benefits, create more jobs, and provide additional tax revenue later on. In a nation that is far too reliant upon financial services, and that should be looking to diversify more, this is exactly the kind of thing needed.
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This applies equally to the biotech, chemical and pharmaceutical industries- three areas where we still remain a world leader. For instance in the last year 3 new kinds of immunological drug have been developed in Britain, each worth ~£300 million per year each, a sizeable proportion of which will no doubt flow to the treasury. In addition to this they potentially will save and improve many lives. This is exactly why we should be doing more to encourage children to consider careers in this area and not deter them from what frequently viewed as "too hard".
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The argument with regard to medicine is a different one, admittedly there are already sufficient numbers of applicants, and probably would be still should fees be raised. However, it is a profession that is already dominated by the public and privately schooled middle classes. In a profession that should be both representative of the population as a whole, and attracting the most talented youngsters possible in order to further medical science. Raising fees further would see even fewer children from lower income backgrounds enter medical school and this is clearly undesirable.
* A brief side note- medics in Scotland already pay higher fees- but these are lower than those charged in the rest of the UK anyway, and so it is not such an issue.
there is this often repeated myth that engineers are high earners. hopefully the engineers of the future who read this wont be disappointed. but from my experience, i did an engineering degree in the 80s. of the 30 or so students i was with, 25 or so made it to the finals, and about 3 became engineers despite the other often repeated myth that this country needs more engineers. those who became engineers didn't earn much more than they would have for not getting a degree. i'm one of the few who 25 years on has stuck with it as a career. i took four years off working in the finance sector and made enough to dent the mortgage, but am now working on less than half that as an engineer again – at £20/hr. it is a good job, rewarding in other ways and employment is fairly consistent, but the money is not what you may think and in the uk never will be.
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Medics and engineers earn more and therefore end up paying more in taxes. If Britain churns out less graduates with the ability to work in high-skilled technical industries then this will result in less tax revenue for the government, which means less money to spend on public services. Public services include things like…..education!
European (such as Scandinavian) countries that don't have tuition fees tend to have higher rates of income tax. Therefore paying 9% extra tax on earnings above £15,000, which is the reality of student debt, is in fact quite similar to situation in these countries.
All degrees are subsidised by the government to a certain extent. If we're going to introduce differential fees by subject I'd argue the opposite to your position. Arts degrees are least deserving of subsidy as Arts graduates contribute least to the economy.
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I'm in favour of simply scrapping tuition fees.
Labour's case has collapsed further with the latest down scaling of the graduate premium from the claimed £400k.
and has anyone ever heard an explanation for higher education minister Bill Rammell's claim that without top-up fees we'd need "3p or 4p" added to the "standard" rate of taxation. I make that £15 bn or about 10 times what top-up fees actually net.
The £70 a year increase in tax (per taxpayer) that would be needed to replace tution fees is easily affordable even in these times.
It's true: abolishing top-up fees would cost only a few billion. But this isn't going to happen; universities need more money, and the government ain't going to give it. It has to come from somewhere, and the fairest way is to take it from who benefits most from their degrees: graduates.
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What I should have pointed out is that I believe that all students should pay more, in general. Education should be free at the point of access, but those who can afford to pay for it (graduates) should do so.
You're right, society gains a net benefit from high earning, skilled graduates. The amount of extra tax they earn, however, won't redress the shortfall between the cost of their degree and what they paid. If you can afford to pay the full cost of your degree, you should. An engineering degree will probably earn you an extra £500,000 over your lifetime, compared to many other degrees. Is it that unreasonable to ask them to cover more of the cost of the qualification that gave them £500,000?
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It costs an international student £12950 per annum to study engineering at my university, and its a four year course, and I believe this represents the full cost of the course, thats £51800 in total. Now an UK student (non-Scottish) student pays £1820 per year, 7280 in total. The difference between 51800 and 7280 is £44520. Now if the engineer doees earn 500K over the course of their lifetime and pays tax on it even at just 10%, (although obviously it will be higher) they will already have paid back more than it costs to train them. In essence they already do cover the cost of their qualification.
In contrast, an arts student, especially at less prestigious universities outside of the russel group, may earn no more than the national average over the course of their lifetime, having cost even 10K extra to train they are costing the state considerably more than the engineer, and as such it is actually the engineer/scientist/medic that is subsidising their degree.
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Higher education funding makes up 2% of the budget. 500,000 extra over a career = 200,000 extra tax. 2% of 200,000 = £4,000.
This means that for the £51,800 universities spend teaching engineers, they get £4,000 back (plus around £13,000 in tuition fees over four years in England). That's the problem.
British universities are financially fucked. They've just had another £600m knocked off their budgets. They need some more revenue somehow, and it looks like this is going to have to come from students. Would you not become an engineer if you looked at only earning £460,000 extra, rather than £500,000 extra?
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I wouldn't become an engineer anyway…I'm not a massive fan of maths! But do you think the average 17 year old from a lower income isn't going to think twice about a 50 grand price tag or that it isn't going to influence their decision? Anyway by that logic an arts student paying perhaps no more tax than average…2% of nothing being well nothing, is still a much bigger drain. The point is that the economic benefits of training more engineers means the government gets that extra 200K…which is a good return on a 50K investment by any measure- the hypothetical engineer has made their training worthwhile. The fact that the government then sees fit to waste cash on PFI, foreign wars and a massive bank bailout is really their responsibility (and I'll wager a fraction of any of these would cover the funding gap).
The new scientist ran an interesting article several months ago about how an investment in science and technology may be the best way to stimulate an economy, pound for pound. Following on from this Obama has announced the largest ever science investment increase worth $70 bn per year! At the same time our government cutting higher education funding is truly mystifying- why cut from research budgets when its an area that will bring benefits. In a week in which Britain recieved 3 nobel prizes, one in each of the sciences (2 of which were biologists!), it is a shame that the government is undermining future success in this area. Details of the Obama plan here: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17037-obama...
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I forgot to mention that my solution would be to scrap all those extra university places and plough the funding back into research. I mean seriously that 50% target….what is the point….in what alternate reality do we need that many graduates? NULAB are simply using universities as a holding pen for the youth in an attempt to keep unemployment down.